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	<title>Comments on: Vaguely Defined Property Rights</title>
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		<title>By: Vaguely Defined Property Rights Indeed &#124; A Response to Robert T. Long &#124; The Murph Report</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-87594</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vaguely Defined Property Rights Indeed &#124; A Response to Robert T. Long &#124; The Murph Report]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 25 Sep 2011 22:05:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-87594</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] all fairness, however, Carson, in a comment on Klein’s 2007 article“Vaguely Defined Property Rights”, suggested that Klein investigate some of Ellerman’s ideas of the sort I’ve presented here. I [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all fairness, however, Carson, in a comment on Klein’s 2007 article“Vaguely Defined Property Rights”, suggested that Klein investigate some of Ellerman’s ideas of the sort I’ve presented here. I [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Cato Unbound &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Free Market Firms: Smaller, Flatter, and More Crowded</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-73609</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cato Unbound &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Free Market Firms: Smaller, Flatter, and More Crowded]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:13:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-73609</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] regard to (d), Klein thinks that non-corporate forms suffer from vaguely defined property rights. I found this claim puzzling, since “vaguely defined property rights” are notoriously a problem [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] regard to (d), Klein thinks that non-corporate forms suffer from vaguely defined property rights. I found this claim puzzling, since “vaguely defined property rights” are notoriously a problem [...]</p>
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		<title>By: De-Klein-ed: A Fictional Encounter in Five Acts &#171; Instead of a Blog</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-72748</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[De-Klein-ed: A Fictional Encounter in Five Acts &#171; Instead of a Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 28 Jan 2009 16:21:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-72748</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] was referring to his 2007 article &#8220;Vaguely Defined Property Rights&#8221; where he essentially argues, using Mike Cook as a primary source, against the LMF on [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] was referring to his 2007 article &#8220;Vaguely Defined Property Rights&#8221; where he essentially argues, using Mike Cook as a primary source, against the LMF on [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Vaguely Defined Property Rights Indeed &#171; Instead of a Blog</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-72385</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vaguely Defined Property Rights Indeed &#171; Instead of a Blog]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Dec 2008 03:02:29 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[[...] all fairness, however, Carson, in a comment on Klein&#8217;s 2007 article &#8220;Vaguely Defined Property Rights&#8221;, suggested that Klein investigate some of Ellerman&#8217;s ideas of the sort I&#8217;ve presented [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] all fairness, however, Carson, in a comment on Klein&#8217;s 2007 article &#8220;Vaguely Defined Property Rights&#8221;, suggested that Klein investigate some of Ellerman&#8217;s ideas of the sort I&#8217;ve presented [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Wang</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15824</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joseph Wang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 18:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15824</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[One more thing.  Even in corporations that are decentralized or &quot;worker-driven&quot; the management has the authority to change that.  This authority comes from the fact that the management has legal authority and control over the bank account.  The issue of human authority and interaction is much more complex than a lot of the academic literature seems to imply.

One other thing that a lot of talk about worker managed companies don&#039;t talk about is that, in my experience, the only real vote that you have in a corporation is to vote with your feet and leave.  If you end up with a situation where you make it more difficult for a worker to get up and leave and work for someone else, you might end up actually decreasing the control that the worker has.

Finally, as a worker, I&#039;d really prefer in some cases to just get cash in lieu of marginally useful control rights.  If I get cash, it&#039;s mine and the cash is not encumbered with what other people in the company do.  If I get control rights, then the value of those rights is determined by things that I may have no control over.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One more thing.  Even in corporations that are decentralized or &#8220;worker-driven&#8221; the management has the authority to change that.  This authority comes from the fact that the management has legal authority and control over the bank account.  The issue of human authority and interaction is much more complex than a lot of the academic literature seems to imply.</p>
<p>One other thing that a lot of talk about worker managed companies don&#8217;t talk about is that, in my experience, the only real vote that you have in a corporation is to vote with your feet and leave.  If you end up with a situation where you make it more difficult for a worker to get up and leave and work for someone else, you might end up actually decreasing the control that the worker has.</p>
<p>Finally, as a worker, I&#8217;d really prefer in some cases to just get cash in lieu of marginally useful control rights.  If I get cash, it&#8217;s mine and the cash is not encumbered with what other people in the company do.  If I get control rights, then the value of those rights is determined by things that I may have no control over.</p>
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		<title>By: Joseph Wang</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15820</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Joseph Wang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 09 Apr 2007 17:51:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15820</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hi all,

I&#039;ve been very interested in applying Austrian economics to the issue of Chinese industrial restructuring, and I have a very, very rough paper here

http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Toward_a_theory_of_corporate_governance_in_China%27s_socialist_market_economy

Basically, I&#039;m trying to argue that a corporation is a &quot;unit of planning&quot; and that the purpose of corporate finance is to interface the unit of planning with the larger economy which is too large to be planned because of the economic calculation problem.  The argument is that for an individual or small group, the difficulty of creating a market outweighs the problems of direct planning.  For a national economy, the calculation cost of a market is far less than the cost of direct planning.  In between there is a &quot;natural scale&quot; for a &quot;unit of planning&quot; that interacts as a single agent in the market, but is bureaucratically planned internally.

One thing that helps me write these papers is that I&#039;ve actually worked in a corporation.

Anyhow some comments on worker owned companies:

1) The theory of worker owned companies works better than the practice because at the end of the day sometimes you have to make a decision, and if the workers disagree you have to have a political process and you might end up being on the side that wins or the side that loses.  In any case there is a disconnect between what happens and the decisions that one would personally make.

2) One other problem with worker owned companies is that if the company gets run into the ground, you lose both your income and any value in your control rights for the company.  From a portfolio management standpoint it makes sense to take the income you make from the company you work at, and buy control shares of another company so that you have more diversification.

3) Professions which do have worker owned companies often are structured this way because of legal restrictions.  Doctors and lawyers are generally legally prohibited from creating joint-stock corporations, and so the corporate forms that exist are usually state mandated.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all,</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been very interested in applying Austrian economics to the issue of Chinese industrial restructuring, and I have a very, very rough paper here</p>
<p><a href="http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Toward_a_theory_of_corporate_governance_in_China%27s_socialist_market_economy" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikiversity.org/wiki/Toward_a_theory_of_corporate_governance_in_China%27s_socialist_market_economy</a></p>
<p>Basically, I&#8217;m trying to argue that a corporation is a &#8220;unit of planning&#8221; and that the purpose of corporate finance is to interface the unit of planning with the larger economy which is too large to be planned because of the economic calculation problem.  The argument is that for an individual or small group, the difficulty of creating a market outweighs the problems of direct planning.  For a national economy, the calculation cost of a market is far less than the cost of direct planning.  In between there is a &#8220;natural scale&#8221; for a &#8220;unit of planning&#8221; that interacts as a single agent in the market, but is bureaucratically planned internally.</p>
<p>One thing that helps me write these papers is that I&#8217;ve actually worked in a corporation.</p>
<p>Anyhow some comments on worker owned companies:</p>
<p>1) The theory of worker owned companies works better than the practice because at the end of the day sometimes you have to make a decision, and if the workers disagree you have to have a political process and you might end up being on the side that wins or the side that loses.  In any case there is a disconnect between what happens and the decisions that one would personally make.</p>
<p>2) One other problem with worker owned companies is that if the company gets run into the ground, you lose both your income and any value in your control rights for the company.  From a portfolio management standpoint it makes sense to take the income you make from the company you work at, and buy control shares of another company so that you have more diversification.</p>
<p>3) Professions which do have worker owned companies often are structured this way because of legal restrictions.  Doctors and lawyers are generally legally prohibited from creating joint-stock corporations, and so the corporate forms that exist are usually state mandated.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15570</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Carson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 07 Apr 2007 18:16:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15570</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not sure about the time-series or cross-sectional studies, Peter.  I doubt there&#039;s much along those lines, though, just because the measures of government intervention are themselves apt to be a source of political controversy.  Here are a couple of links:

Yours Truly.  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/02/neoliberal-myth-of-small-government.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; The Neoliberal Myth of &quot;Small Government&quot;&lt;/A&gt;
Nicholas Hildyard.  &lt;a HREF=&quot;http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/item.shtml?x=51960&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;The Myth of the Minimalist State: Free Market Ambiguities&lt;/A&gt;

On agriculture, I won&#039;t try to guess the effects state intervention has on the cooperative form as such.  But my gut reaction is that farming would be much smaller-scale and more local, on average, in a free market;  and that would tend to mean a greater prevalence of family farms and other operator-owned farms, all other things being equal.  The current model of agribusiness is heavily reliant on subsidized long-distance transportation, subsidized irrigation water,  and (in the Third World) state-backed latifundismo at the expense of traditional property rights in the land.  In the U.S., ag subsidies go disproportionately to large-scale cereal farming, and are primarily a way for the largest operators to collect taxpayer rents on the portion of their huge land holdings they keep idle.  In addition, government-funded R&amp;D is aimed primarily at centralizing &quot;Green Revolution&quot; technologies adapted mainly to the needs of large-scale agribusiness with subsidized inputs.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not sure about the time-series or cross-sectional studies, Peter.  I doubt there&#8217;s much along those lines, though, just because the measures of government intervention are themselves apt to be a source of political controversy.  Here are a couple of links:</p>
<p>Yours Truly.  <a HREF="http://mutualist.blogspot.com/2005/02/neoliberal-myth-of-small-government.html" rel="nofollow"> The Neoliberal Myth of &#8220;Small Government&#8221;</a><br />
Nicholas Hildyard.  <a HREF="http://www.thecornerhouse.org.uk/item.shtml?x=51960" rel="nofollow">The Myth of the Minimalist State: Free Market Ambiguities</a></p>
<p>On agriculture, I won&#8217;t try to guess the effects state intervention has on the cooperative form as such.  But my gut reaction is that farming would be much smaller-scale and more local, on average, in a free market;  and that would tend to mean a greater prevalence of family farms and other operator-owned farms, all other things being equal.  The current model of agribusiness is heavily reliant on subsidized long-distance transportation, subsidized irrigation water,  and (in the Third World) state-backed latifundismo at the expense of traditional property rights in the land.  In the U.S., ag subsidies go disproportionately to large-scale cereal farming, and are primarily a way for the largest operators to collect taxpayer rents on the portion of their huge land holdings they keep idle.  In addition, government-funded R&amp;D is aimed primarily at centralizing &#8220;Green Revolution&#8221; technologies adapted mainly to the needs of large-scale agribusiness with subsidized inputs.</p>
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		<title>By: Peter Klein</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15425</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Peter Klein]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 23:27:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15425</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Kevin, thanks for the Ellerman cite; I&#039;ll check it out. And of course you&#039;re right that we can&#039;t say for sure what firm sizes and structures would be selected in a free market. As far as making conjectures, though, is there any time-series or cross-sectional evidence that smaller firms, more decentralized firms, worker-owned firms, and the like arise more often in less interventionist economies? In agriculture the usual assumption is the opposite, namely that cooperatives have survived mainly due to special protection like the Capper-Volstead Act.

Dick, thanks for mentioning Hansmann (whom Cook cites heavily). And I think you are asking exactly the right questions. The fact that even highly decentralized firms like Koch Industries remain firms, rather than networks of independent contractors, suggest that there are non-trivial benefits of hierarchy that contribute to the optimal mix.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kevin, thanks for the Ellerman cite; I&#8217;ll check it out. And of course you&#8217;re right that we can&#8217;t say for sure what firm sizes and structures would be selected in a free market. As far as making conjectures, though, is there any time-series or cross-sectional evidence that smaller firms, more decentralized firms, worker-owned firms, and the like arise more often in less interventionist economies? In agriculture the usual assumption is the opposite, namely that cooperatives have survived mainly due to special protection like the Capper-Volstead Act.</p>
<p>Dick, thanks for mentioning Hansmann (whom Cook cites heavily). And I think you are asking exactly the right questions. The fact that even highly decentralized firms like Koch Industries remain firms, rather than networks of independent contractors, suggest that there are non-trivial benefits of hierarchy that contribute to the optimal mix.</p>
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		<title>By: Kevin Carson</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15255</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Kevin Carson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Apr 2007 07:16:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-15255</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It makes perfect sense to say with Coase that a free market will establish the boundaries between hierarchy and market based on the point at which internal agency costs outweigh external transaction costs.  It also makes sense to say that if hierarchies exist, they must possess some advantage in the existing environment that outweighs their inefficiency costs.  But neither one by itself, nor both together, imply that the current prevalence of hierarchies over markets or cooperatives must reflect some superior efficiency in a free market.  The real is not necessarily rational.

This is not, after all, a free market.  The prevalence of corporate hierarchy may reflect, in part, its superior efficiency at exploiting some privilege or other.  Corporate hierarchies are excellent, e.g., for exercising control over &quot;intellectual property&quot; [sic] and operating a tollgate between information workers and consumers.  In some cases, like Nike as described by Naomi Klein, the corporation has outsourced most actual production to independent contractors, and retained control only over central finance, patents, and trademarks.

It&#039;s often said that slavery is the most inefficient way to organize production.  The only thing less efficient, from the slave-owner&#039;s perspective, is having to do the work himself or to negotiate a wage with a free human being.  A particular form of organizing production may be quite bad in terms of operating efficiencies, and yet be very efficient indeed from the perspective of those at the top.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It makes perfect sense to say with Coase that a free market will establish the boundaries between hierarchy and market based on the point at which internal agency costs outweigh external transaction costs.  It also makes sense to say that if hierarchies exist, they must possess some advantage in the existing environment that outweighs their inefficiency costs.  But neither one by itself, nor both together, imply that the current prevalence of hierarchies over markets or cooperatives must reflect some superior efficiency in a free market.  The real is not necessarily rational.</p>
<p>This is not, after all, a free market.  The prevalence of corporate hierarchy may reflect, in part, its superior efficiency at exploiting some privilege or other.  Corporate hierarchies are excellent, e.g., for exercising control over &#8220;intellectual property&#8221; [sic] and operating a tollgate between information workers and consumers.  In some cases, like Nike as described by Naomi Klein, the corporation has outsourced most actual production to independent contractors, and retained control only over central finance, patents, and trademarks.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s often said that slavery is the most inefficient way to organize production.  The only thing less efficient, from the slave-owner&#8217;s perspective, is having to do the work himself or to negotiate a wage with a free human being.  A particular form of organizing production may be quite bad in terms of operating efficiencies, and yet be very efficient indeed from the perspective of those at the top.</p>
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		<title>By: Dick Langlois</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-14996</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dick Langlois]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Apr 2007 13:22:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/04/04/vaguely-defined-property-rights/#comment-14996</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I must confess that I haven&#039;t (yet) read Cook&#039;s work.  But in my view the best general work on the cooperative is that of Henry Hansmann (click &lt;a href=&quot;http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=8756-6222%28198823%294%3A2%3C267%3AOOTF%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; if you have access to JSTOR).  He points out that &lt;em&gt;all&lt;/em&gt; forms of organization are really cooperatives.  The ordinary public corporation is a &lt;em&gt;capitalist&#039;s&lt;/em&gt; cooperative.  We see this form most often because giving capital suppliers ownership rights usually minimizes the sum of ownership costs and the costs of contracting with other parties (&quot;patrons&quot;) who aren&#039;t owners.  But sometimes there are special reasons for other forms.  In the case of what we think of as coops (Ocean Spray, Sunkist, AP, IGA, True Value), the issue that overrides the costs of ownership in that form (which both Cook and Hansmann point to) are the costs of contracting with non-owners -- in the typical case a monopoly seller or monopsony buyer.   In my view, the biggest problem with such coops is lack of adaptability, which I guess is related to Cook&#039;s first three points.   That&#039;s why a lot of financials and insurance companies de-mutualized a few years ago, and why Ocean Spray is in trouble.  

Which brings us to the issue of worker participation.  One of my pet peeves is the legions of people writing articles wondering why we don&#039;t see many labor-managed firms -- why labor doesn&#039;t hire capital.  The answer is that we observe tons of labor-managed firms.  But they aren&#039;t proletarian-manged firms: they are high-human-capital firms like law firms, medical practices, accounting firms.  In these cases workers are the low-cost owners (even though they may face costs 4 and 5 in Cook&#039;s scheme) because, especially as there is little non-human capital involved, they are the most costly class of patrons to monitor.  When there is a lot of non-human K involved and workers are not highly skilled, capital suppliers are the low-cost owners.  (That&#039;s why more people have studied Mondragon than have worked there.)

If capitalist coops (regular firms) have high-human-K employees, then we should expect some decentalization (&quot;labor management&quot;) in respect of at least some decision rights.  But that really begs the Coasean question: if workers are most costly to monitor, why not make each one his or her own firm?  The answer is that there have to be offsetting benefits of (some degree of) hierarchy.  What are these?  This is my question about the Kochian internal-market approach.  If there are no synergies among workers (a la Alchian and Demsetz, at the very least), why not decentralize all the way to the market?  And if there are such synergies, how do you solve the internal pricing problems?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I must confess that I haven&#8217;t (yet) read Cook&#8217;s work.  But in my view the best general work on the cooperative is that of Henry Hansmann (click <a href="http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=8756-6222%28198823%294%3A2%3C267%3AOOTF%3E2.0.CO%3B2-%23" rel="nofollow">here</a> if you have access to JSTOR).  He points out that <em>all</em> forms of organization are really cooperatives.  The ordinary public corporation is a <em>capitalist&#8217;s</em> cooperative.  We see this form most often because giving capital suppliers ownership rights usually minimizes the sum of ownership costs and the costs of contracting with other parties (&#8220;patrons&#8221;) who aren&#8217;t owners.  But sometimes there are special reasons for other forms.  In the case of what we think of as coops (Ocean Spray, Sunkist, AP, IGA, True Value), the issue that overrides the costs of ownership in that form (which both Cook and Hansmann point to) are the costs of contracting with non-owners &#8212; in the typical case a monopoly seller or monopsony buyer.   In my view, the biggest problem with such coops is lack of adaptability, which I guess is related to Cook&#8217;s first three points.   That&#8217;s why a lot of financials and insurance companies de-mutualized a few years ago, and why Ocean Spray is in trouble.  </p>
<p>Which brings us to the issue of worker participation.  One of my pet peeves is the legions of people writing articles wondering why we don&#8217;t see many labor-managed firms &#8212; why labor doesn&#8217;t hire capital.  The answer is that we observe tons of labor-managed firms.  But they aren&#8217;t proletarian-manged firms: they are high-human-capital firms like law firms, medical practices, accounting firms.  In these cases workers are the low-cost owners (even though they may face costs 4 and 5 in Cook&#8217;s scheme) because, especially as there is little non-human capital involved, they are the most costly class of patrons to monitor.  When there is a lot of non-human K involved and workers are not highly skilled, capital suppliers are the low-cost owners.  (That&#8217;s why more people have studied Mondragon than have worked there.)</p>
<p>If capitalist coops (regular firms) have high-human-K employees, then we should expect some decentalization (&#8220;labor management&#8221;) in respect of at least some decision rights.  But that really begs the Coasean question: if workers are most costly to monitor, why not make each one his or her own firm?  The answer is that there have to be offsetting benefits of (some degree of) hierarchy.  What are these?  This is my question about the Kochian internal-market approach.  If there are no synergies among workers (a la Alchian and Demsetz, at the very least), why not decentralize all the way to the market?  And if there are such synergies, how do you solve the internal pricing problems?</p>
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