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	<title>Comments on: Economists and Sociologists: Can&#8217;t We All Just Get Along?</title>
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	<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/</link>
	<description>Economics of organizations, strategy, entrepreneurship, innovation, and more</description>
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		<title>By: Methodological Individualism: Flexible and Rigid &#171; The Sociological Imagination</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-74972</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Methodological Individualism: Flexible and Rigid &#171; The Sociological Imagination]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 25 Jul 2009 16:26:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-74972</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] 25, 2009 &#183; Leave a Comment  Back in 2007, economist Peter Klein asked Economists and Sociologists: Can’t We All Just Get Along?  Dr. Klein says, sans rational choicers, most sociologists are uncomfortable with methodological [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] 25, 2009 &middot; Leave a Comment  Back in 2007, economist Peter Klein asked Economists and Sociologists: Can’t We All Just Get Along?  Dr. Klein says, sans rational choicers, most sociologists are uncomfortable with methodological [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Steve Phelan</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55811</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Steve Phelan]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 18:11:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55811</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Lesson from Austrian economics - you have more freedom than you thought
Lesson from Sociology - you have more constraints than you thought]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Lesson from Austrian economics &#8211; you have more freedom than you thought<br />
Lesson from Sociology &#8211; you have more constraints than you thought</p>
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		<title>By: Brian Pitt</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55797</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Brian Pitt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 15:27:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55797</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Dr. Klein,

You get no argument from me on your point #5 (at least your points about capitalism and economics).  The first problem, here, and with your point about game theory, is that (non-rational choice) sociologists love DATA; and tend to eschew &quot;clean&quot; (or rational) social theory.  And I must note, I and most sociologists find most instrumental variables pretty UNDERwhelming (for the reasons you stated); if not outright tautological.  Moreover, and I might get beaten up for this, but economists have done a better job  of explaining capitalism.  And mostly because capitalism cannot be seen exclusively through the lens of the social milieu.

The second problem, and you are in a good position to change this, is that sociologists assume networks, social relationships, and other ontological considerations.  While economists are more interested in the emergence of such networks (or the instrumental action that gives rise to them).  And if one is inclined to assume, e.g., networks and social norms, there is really no time for explaining purposive or instrumental action.  Also, the game-theoretic models of the emergence of norms simply takes a utility-maximizing individual, and over-socializes her into her environment.  And in so doing, neglecting the ontology of how people come to act &quot;purposefully&quot; or &quot;rationally.&quot; 

Getting along demands that scholars take a hard look at rationality and ontology.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr. Klein,</p>
<p>You get no argument from me on your point #5 (at least your points about capitalism and economics).  The first problem, here, and with your point about game theory, is that (non-rational choice) sociologists love DATA; and tend to eschew &#8220;clean&#8221; (or rational) social theory.  And I must note, I and most sociologists find most instrumental variables pretty UNDERwhelming (for the reasons you stated); if not outright tautological.  Moreover, and I might get beaten up for this, but economists have done a better job  of explaining capitalism.  And mostly because capitalism cannot be seen exclusively through the lens of the social milieu.</p>
<p>The second problem, and you are in a good position to change this, is that sociologists assume networks, social relationships, and other ontological considerations.  While economists are more interested in the emergence of such networks (or the instrumental action that gives rise to them).  And if one is inclined to assume, e.g., networks and social norms, there is really no time for explaining purposive or instrumental action.  Also, the game-theoretic models of the emergence of norms simply takes a utility-maximizing individual, and over-socializes her into her environment.  And in so doing, neglecting the ontology of how people come to act &#8220;purposefully&#8221; or &#8220;rationally.&#8221; </p>
<p>Getting along demands that scholars take a hard look at rationality and ontology.</p>
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		<title>By: Meh</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55780</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Meh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:53:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55780</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As for point four, you can argue that it is sunshine that makes the decision when an acorn becomes a tree (or frost or other climate issues.) As such, entrepeneurs may decide to take on capital, but at the same time the &quot;capital market&quot; decides whether or not to supply it.

The reality is that both sides need to be more two-factor about their approach...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As for point four, you can argue that it is sunshine that makes the decision when an acorn becomes a tree (or frost or other climate issues.) As such, entrepeneurs may decide to take on capital, but at the same time the &#8220;capital market&#8221; decides whether or not to supply it.</p>
<p>The reality is that both sides need to be more two-factor about their approach&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Meh</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55779</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Meh]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 08:51:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55779</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not that you will stop and consider this, but the problem with the game-theoretic models of the evolution of norms is that they remain somewhat crude tools.

That is to say, the kind of behaviours you can fit into game-theoretic models aren&#039;t really the bit of &quot;culture&quot; that people have trouble modeling. There&#039;s hundreds (at least) of economists grazing wild and free on game-theoretic norms of behaviour within the firm, but none of them have provided much explanatory power for behaviours which don&#039;t fit into a rigid economic model. That&#039;s because once transactions are difficult to measure (i.e. the economic value is difficult to estimate) then the major error factor in your game theoretic model is mapping between the behaviour and the model.

It&#039;s also true that there are a lot of social psychologists who spend a lot of time repeating studies of relatively simple economic behaviour issues, which is regrettable, but most of the rest of organisation studies has moved on to worry about the bits that don&#039;t fit easily into existing game-theoretic models.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not that you will stop and consider this, but the problem with the game-theoretic models of the evolution of norms is that they remain somewhat crude tools.</p>
<p>That is to say, the kind of behaviours you can fit into game-theoretic models aren&#8217;t really the bit of &#8220;culture&#8221; that people have trouble modeling. There&#8217;s hundreds (at least) of economists grazing wild and free on game-theoretic norms of behaviour within the firm, but none of them have provided much explanatory power for behaviours which don&#8217;t fit into a rigid economic model. That&#8217;s because once transactions are difficult to measure (i.e. the economic value is difficult to estimate) then the major error factor in your game theoretic model is mapping between the behaviour and the model.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s also true that there are a lot of social psychologists who spend a lot of time repeating studies of relatively simple economic behaviour issues, which is regrettable, but most of the rest of organisation studies has moved on to worry about the bits that don&#8217;t fit easily into existing game-theoretic models.</p>
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		<title>By: brayden</title>
		<link>http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55765</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[brayden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 21 Oct 2007 05:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://organizationsandmarkets.com/2007/10/20/economists-and-sociologists-cant-we-all-just-get-along/#comment-55765</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Peter, I&#039;m really glad you were able to come to the conference and that you enjoyed it.  I think the success of the conference was mostly due to wonderful group of people who attended.  

Re your third point: I don&#039;t think this issue was discussed in depth because the kinds of sophisticated modeling you&#039;re talking about are fairly common in organizational sociology.  Most panel level studies use fixed-effects or at least random effects.  It&#039;s common to account for endogeneity with econometric models, like two-stage least squares.  None of this stuff is new, nor is it seen as controversial.  Ethnography and fuzzy sets modeling are both much more controversial but possibly very illuminating in helping us to understand static and dynamic differences between organizations and their contexts.  That said, I heard several people, including Howard Aldrich, calling for the use of even more sophisticated modeling.  By that, I think he meant moving beyond even the simple fixed-effects models to open up the black box and figure out the causes of variance within the dummies.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Peter, I&#8217;m really glad you were able to come to the conference and that you enjoyed it.  I think the success of the conference was mostly due to wonderful group of people who attended.  </p>
<p>Re your third point: I don&#8217;t think this issue was discussed in depth because the kinds of sophisticated modeling you&#8217;re talking about are fairly common in organizational sociology.  Most panel level studies use fixed-effects or at least random effects.  It&#8217;s common to account for endogeneity with econometric models, like two-stage least squares.  None of this stuff is new, nor is it seen as controversial.  Ethnography and fuzzy sets modeling are both much more controversial but possibly very illuminating in helping us to understand static and dynamic differences between organizations and their contexts.  That said, I heard several people, including Howard Aldrich, calling for the use of even more sophisticated modeling.  By that, I think he meant moving beyond even the simple fixed-effects models to open up the black box and figure out the causes of variance within the dummies.</p>
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